Questions & Answers - There might have been a misunderstanding...

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Questions

How to explain it to 6 million users? OpenStreetMAP is not a map and the website where you see a map can not be used as any normal map. +1 (Only 6 million? Viewers too?)
1. How to keep them interested and excited to contribute more without a good and functional website?
[DONE] How about Allan Mustard’s views. And debate between you and him?
1. (note - I would love for a true debate on the versions of OSM the project and community. And, if we could add some voices/opinions from Asia, Africa, or South America, that would be great too.)
The data seems outside of the point. Google Maps is a product, with definite end users identified and goals. We don’t even have a consistent understanding of the users for the website. Isn’t that what confuses people about OSM? How can we better communicate what OSM is about?
[DONE] How much of your talk is OSM policy vs your personal opinion? +3
[DONE] Has anyone ever seriously argued that OSM should include promotional blurb for businesses, like the dentist example you gave?
1. Answer (in Q&A session; paraphrased) “No, but I have deleted many”
2. [DONE] Why couldn’t OSM also be a “business directory”?
  1. users need to know where is the dentist, the grocery… when it is opened…
  2. See the the success of Ça Reste Ouvert during the COVID-19 crisis
  3. Admit it, phone number tags mean you are more than just a map. (Good thing too.)
[DONE] Why is there an ‘us’ and ‘them’ approach in how people use OSM? Whether is it is civic tech or humanitarian, surely there is just ‘human’ engagement with the project?
1. lol – I think this question was referring to Frederik’s perspective
[DONE] Should the OSMF being working with press to counter-act these misconceptions or at least attempt to have as much press coverage as HOT? (+2)
[DONE] Couldn’t OSM as a whole attract just as much or more funding as the humanitarian groups do, except that OSMF has not wanted this funding?
[DONE] Have you ever visited a mapping community in Africa? South America? Asia? +2-1
Why does this view of OSM - the project and the community not take into account the different approaches and contexts of local /regional mapping?
Hey wait a second. Who gets to say what OSM “is” and “isn’t” any why define it “so fast” in the first place?
OK, you’ve got great ideas. But are you ever changed any since you joined OSM ever or are they the same from day 1?? ?
[DONE] Why did you go against the on the ground rule in Crimea? +2-1
Can you give a single example of an AI mapping proponent who has said that the community inputs are not important? Just one please.
1. http://mike.teczno.com/notes/openstreetmap-at-a-crossroads.html - “Left to the craft wing, OSM will slide into weekend irrelevance within 5-10 years” There you go.
  1. +1-1
  2. eh – don’t see the equivalence in those statements
    1. (+1)
  3. This statement clearly indicates that the “craft wing” is a sub-set of the community at large, so it’s not a good example of an AI mapping proponent saying that community inputs are not important.
    1. “<group> will doom OSM” = “these people are unimportant” c’mon!
      1. “<group> will doom OSM” is a misqoute; the true quote is “<group> would doom OSM if <circumstace> applied” - it was an arguement against <circumstace>, not <group>
        
        “If we only have <group> things will get really bad” = “<group> is not important”
        
        No, it is not; it is <group B> is also requried”; consider: “if you only consume water, you will die”
2. Facebook’s first attempt of AI/CV import was done without telling anyone https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17856687
  1. 4 years ago….
  2. The question didn’t have a time limit ;)
    1. +2
    2. Clever way to get around answering the real question
      1. The question had explicit “just one” request
        
        Which you have failed to provide.
        
        This is like arguing with a biblical fundamentalist about contradictions in the bible! You can twist anything into anything. :)
        
        I invoke Arkell v. Pressdram
        
        Let’s reset: Is there evidence that the proponents of AI based mapping are not supportive of community mapping at present?
        
        The evidence has been provided. Are you really trying to have a good faith, genuine conversation? ;)
        
        No evdinece has been given, that satisfies the request “Can you give a single example of an AI mapping proponent who has said that the community inputs are not important?”. HTH.
        
        Yes. Are there current examples. Not 4 year old ones
        
        That’s a different question
        
        ↑ stop. This is a silly thread.
        
        I like levels
        
        Me too
        
        But this is getting
        
        silly
        
        this guy needs to understand make research on how HOT has been very good to communities, African communities have grown cause of support from HOT
        
        I don’t think he only references HOT. you are conflating
        
        how much research does Fredrick do??

Frederick can usually be found on IRC and is hosting a BBB “Virtual Pub Meet” session tomorrow, you could chat to him there. We can also look forward to him perha

Comments

“openstreetmap.org is not aimed at the public (but at mappers)” Well the public can see it more and more all over the place… For every 1 mappers that see it, there are 100regular people who see it when looking at e.g., government websites that have chosen it as their background.
As I know: instead of “we are not a map (but a database)” We are an ecosystem ( community of mappers + database + developers + companies + AI algorithms ) .. in this priority orders .. imho: We need New Values ! and need a New OSM Manifesto !
1. +1
“why the OSM community is often skeptical about filling an empty map with data imports, about AI contributions, or about automatic edits” - parts of the OSM community; please don’t presume to speak for me.
Sure, OSM on its own is NOT a “competitor of Google Maps”… and you outline the points clearly as to why it’s not. However, OSM is a major and necessary part of (or perhaps powering?) a larger ecosystem of tools/data/products that together are a substitute/competitor/superior product to Google Maps for certain regions of the world and certainly for specific purposes (i.e. humanitarian applications or routing (in some areas)).
There’s no reason we can not show more than “control” of borders. It’s just a tagging problem.
Alas, local hothead OSM leaders define what is on the ground (language of place names in Taiwan).
HOT does a lot of good work to train people on the ground so that they can make and maintain their own maps; the comments made in this presentation seem to be a gross misrepersenattion +1
1. Reply: yes, but not everyone working in humanitarian mapping does this, and it’s a newer phenomenon for many. It’s a fair point.
  1. That wasn’t the point the speaker made; he mis-described HOT as a whole, single, entity +1-1
    1. Is HOT not a single entity?
      1. not according to “not everyone working in humanitarian mapping does this”
      2. Everyone working in humanitarian mapping is not a part of HOT…
        
        the original point - which you said was “fair” - was about HOT.
        
        Oh by the speaker? I did not hear him speak only re: HOT but outside of that it is a fair point…As well even HOT has made a lot of changes over the years.
        
        +1
Pretty dismissive attitude towards humanitarian mapping. “Rich college kids”
1. +2
2. -1 (it was an example, don’t have to take everything literally..imo)
  1. 1. It was stated literally. but as an exampe, it would have been a dismissibve one.
3. +1-1
4. Yes very partronising Rich countries giving maps to poorer ones??? +1-1
5. So you don’t think that rich college kids do a lot of humanitarian mapping?
6. #NotAllHumanitarianMappers: srsly? 🙄
Fairly colonialist approach and tone about ‘for africa rather than with ‘communities’
1. I don’t think that is what the speaker said, he was critiquing that approach. Or did I mis hear?
2. I don’t think the speaker has a good idea of how HOT works and how OSM works outside of Germany
The terms “ground” and “field” are often considered limiting in terms of power and equality.
Frederik’s “straw man voice” (the vocal inflection he uses when putting word in other people’s mouths) is a very ineffective rhetorical choice. I’m having trouble tracking which things are his opinions and which things are the opinions he ascribes to others.
There is no one way to OSM - there are many. The tone about ‘humanitarian mapping’ and/or ‘mapping in africa’ misses that the way that people engage in the project and the community is diverse - thus a global community. The filter used here should not be considered “FACT” but a version. I hope that people can give space for other versions more.
1. “You are entitled to your own opinions - but not your own facts”
Yes, ever since Google started charging, lots of websites switched to OSM: Thus indeed a competetor to Google maps. -jidanni
Allan is not new to OSM. He has done his research.
1. +1
2. +1
we can map a path on a private backyard that we can not see from outside, but we can not map a shop without an outside sign?
Nice to catch the habit. Inclusive language is important. :-)